Spiritual experiences, miracles and why they don't mean anything to me now

While I don't deny people have had spiritual experiences, I can't help but wonder whether they were from God or not. Some of the experiences I've heard about could easily have just been someone recognizing needs and meeting them, whether consciously or subconsciously. Some could be the holy ghost or they could be chemicals in your body making you feel or experience something when you had a desire to feel good about something anyway. This is why I struggle when I hear about someone else's experiences. They aren't mine so I can't help but wonder whether they came from God or whether someone just thought they were from God. You might feel confident they were from God but why should I feel confident they were? Why should I believe that you haven't tricked yourself into believing they were from God? And if I should believe you why shouldn't I believe people from other churches that have spiritual confirmations their church is the only true one. My Bishop told me about a spiritual experience he had while doing a service project, the problem, for me, was that everyone who does service feels the same things he was saying he felt. Maybe that's God making us feel good for helping each other or maybe it's chemicals in our brains, this video explains the chemicals in our brains and how we can make them release by doing things for other people, like service https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ReRcHdeUG9Y

For years now I've held onto an experience with tithing I had as a possible witness, but when I'm honest with myself it seems like it could easily have been dumb luck. I knew the department I worked in was doing bonuses. I honestly didn't think I would get one since I had started in October and I knew the bonuses were for the year. I knew my boss was doing meetings with people to discuss them on a Friday in March or something, for some reason, I can't remember why, I left a little early that Friday and didn't have a chance to meet with my boss. That Sunday was a fast Sunday so we fasted and prayed and payed $300 in tithing so we could get an extra $3000 to help with our yard. Monday, I went to work and saw a message on my desk phone from Friday. My boss had wanted to meet with me Friday but since I left early, he left a message and asked me to meet with him as soon as I could on Monday. I met with him and he told me I was getting a $2900 bonus. At the time that felt like a huge miracle, now let me explain why I now think it was dumb luck. When I started at my current job I also started in mid-October. When they did bonuses at my current job, I was told I wasn't getting anything because I had started in October, if I had started a few weeks earlier in September I would have been eligible for a bonus. This reinforced the thought that the bonus at the first company was a miracle. Recently I've learned about "financial years" and how each company can have a slightly different scheduled for their financial year. Some companies start in January, others might start in December or February. At my first company, their Q3 ends each year on October 27th, I started on October 24th, my current companies Q3 ends September 15th, I started on October 27th. So I started before the end of Q3 at my first job and in the middle of Q4 at my current job. So, perhaps God stepped in and gave us money when we asked for it, perhaps he knew we were going to ask so he orchestrated things so I would be there early enough to qualify for the bonus, or perhaps I just didn't understand how finances at big companies worked and because I had started in Q3 at my first job I was eligible for a bonus and since the bonuses there typically ran in the 10-20k range a 3k bonus for the last quarter for the year was exactly what I should have expected and it was just dumb luck that we felt like 3k was all we needed for our yard (even though after taxes and tithing we really only had closer to half of what we asked for when we needed it). My point is, that experience sure felt supernatural at the time, but now that I have some context it looks like a coincidence. And maybe that's how all of God's miracles work, we give someone a blessing and some and the pain goes away. Was it the blessing or the tylenol, or was the the miracle and the blessing just helped us connect with the divine before getting the miracle?

Science can explain nearly everything in the universe with a few consistent theories. The theories don't contradict or invalidate each other, there might be a few rules about things like the speed of light but basically everything can be explained in a consistent way without contradictions until right before the big bang. Then before that they have to use a different theory for a few things. So, we have 2 contexts/theories to explain the universe and scientists feel confident they will eventually narrow it down to 1 theory. Why can't God explain everything about the church with one theory? Why do I have to have one theory for each individual issue that conflicts with theories for other issues? That seems really weird and almost manipulative to suggest that God made a huge mess so we would have to have faith, shouldn't everything make sense so you could use that as an evidence for your faith? I'm sure every family is different but growing up the God I was taught about wouldn't have setup the church like this, maybe that's a failing on my parents and the wards I grew up in. Maybe that's a failing in how the gospel works, everyone can understand it drastically different. Take D&C 132 19-26 I look at that and can easily reason that because I've been sealed in the temple I don't need to keep any commandments any more except the one to not murder. My salvation is guaranteed at this point. It doesn't matter if I drink some beer, pay tithing or even commit adultery. It does say I'll suffer between death and the first resurrection, but after that I'm good. Others look at that scripture and despite the fact that verse 19 says the person performing the sealing is doing it by the holy spirit of promise if they are anointed, they say that what it really means is that we have to work  to live a good life so that the spirit will seal the sealing. Who's right? That's a drastic example, we can find smaller ones like families that don't drink coke because they think it's against the word of wisdom, and families that do drink coke because it's not a hot drink or tea/coffee. Who's right? (Now, I know the typical LDS person would say, that's what the prophet is for, but we know the prophets got the black priesthood ban wrong, we know prophets got polygamy wrong, we know the prophets got landing on the moon and the civil rights movement wrong, why should we think they got it right when it comes to a sealing by the holy spirit of prophesy or coke?)

In the past few months, I've learned that Joseph Smith tried to translate at least 5 different ancient documents. The Book of Mormon, The Book of Abraham, The Bible, The Kinderhook plates and a Greek Psalter. The Gold plates are nowhere to be seen so we can't validate that translation, but the lack of any evidence of Nephites or Lamanites is a problem. The scrolls that Joseph used for the Book of Abraham we do have and it has been checked and it was found they matched an Egyptian book called the Book of Breathing which has nothing to do with Abraham. The Bible translation was recently found, by BYU no less, to mostly be a plagiarism of the Adam Clarke bible commentary. The Kinderhook plates were specifically created in the 1830s to see if Joseph really could translate, basically they were an intentional trick, he said he could, if I recall correctly he said they contained writings of Moses, the church has them and verified them in the 1900s and found that they indeed were fake. The Greek Psalter was also a trick, someone showed it to Joseph and said "I think it's just a Greek psalter but what do you think" and Joseph said it was a dictionary in reformed Egyptian. So, from what we can tell Joseph either lied or didn't understand the revelation he was getting for 4 out of 5 translations. Why should I just believe he got it right on the Book of Mormon? And, as so many prophets over the past 200 years have said, the Book of Mormon is the keystone of our religion, if it falls, the church falls, so while all the other stuff is concerning and difficult to swallow, the fact that I've never had a witness of the book of Mormon is crushing, and when I see the mountain of evidence against it, I need a lot more than a warm feeling to help me believe. 

Hopefully that helps you understand a little better what I'm struggling with. I've had "spiritual experiences", and I've seen "miracles", but they are easily explained away with misunderstanding the world around me. The Book of Mormon my whole life was passed off as the physical evidence that God provided to show the church is true. But when "Mormoni's promise" doesn't ever work for me and when everything else Joseph did was fraudulent, it sure seems like the Book of Mormon is just another made up book that hasn't been proven a lie because Joseph was smart enough to destroy any left over evidence.

Marriage for Salvation?

If Hellen Mar Kimball, the 14 year old girl who was given to Joseph by her father so that her family could have eternal life, was only sealed to Joseph for eternity then why was she and her mom so sad about the sealing? https://rsc.byu.edu/no-weapon-shall-prosper/subject-can-bear-investigation  (The article points out that there is no hard evidence that sex happened, however we know Brigham had teenage wives that had children, we know Lorenzo Snow had teenage wives who bore children, why wouldn't we think Joseph was also having sex with even his youngest wives? The articles confirms there is evidence he had sex with some of the wives. As you read you can see that this "eternity only" sealing caused lots of sadness for HMK and her mother who knew of others that were sealed to the prophet and were sad or mistreated because of it. So I feel it's reasonable given all of that to assume sex was happening and that the "eternity only" sealing had implications for the here and now otherwise HMK wouldn't have felt she couldn't experience romantic love in this life)

Also, how can Hellen Mar Kimball being sealed to Joseph Smith save her entire family? I thought everyone had to work out their own salvation. I can't recall a scripture or conference talk but I feel like we've been taught that each person has to work out their own salvation, you can't be extra good and then pull along your spouse or sibling to the celestial kingdom if they weren't keeping the commandments.

Plan of Salvation doesn't make much sense

This isn't my thought, I copied it from an anonymous reddit user but it makes a lot of sense to me:

Right, and usually when I bring this up, believers will quickly bring up temple work, but that doesn't really address the issue I'm speaking to. Yes, I understand that temple work is supposed to save the uninitiated. The problem is that when 99.9999% (estimating 21 million members since 1830, and 107 billion people ever) of humanity will be saved for their actions taken in the spirit world, the entire point of earth life in the Plan of Salvation becomes pointless. We say it's the time to prepare to meet God, but it isn't for the vast majority of humans who have ever lived. It's pointless suffering and violence that accomplishes nothing more than gaining an earth body. As a means to acquire a body, it's a bit overengineered on God's part, and probably redundant considering it doesn't even give us the resurrected body we really care about. God can apparently just summon that into existence, so what's the point of getting an inferior body here first? So the Plan of Salvation purports to explain the purpose of life, but if you pick at it very long, you realize it doesn't explain anything really. For a precious few people, earth life will actually fulfill its stated purpose. For everyone else, it's pointless. And of course, when you consider the centuries and millennia that have passed for entire civilizations and races to whom God neglected to impart ordinances or the gospel, it becomes really difficult to believe that my and others' salvation depends on doing home teaching, attending all my meetings and not drinking coffee.  

By their fruits...

Secret $100+ billion account that failed to report anything to the government until information was leaked to the public in 2019  

Black children of God were denied entrance into Temples for 14 years after the Civil rights act made it illegal to discriminate on the basis of race. That's ignoring the fact they were banned for more than 100 years before that.  

  

Estimates show the church receives between $4 and $8 billion each year in tithing. Charitable giving by the church each year is estimated at $70 million. $70 million used to assist people out of $5 billion donated is less than 2%. As members we are told to give at least 10% to the church. Shouldn't the church give at least 10% to the poor? If the church truly followed Christ then wouldn't it sell all and give to the poor?  

  

Joseph Smith married a 14 year old girl, who was devastated by the marriage but did it so her family would be guaranteed eternal salvation.  

  

Joseph Smith convinced other women to marry him by promising them salvation; I thought we had to work out our own salvation; I didn't think anyone but Christ could promise it too us.  

  

Joseph Smith had a printing press burned because it was going to expose his polygamy.  

  

Joseph Smith married a women then had her pretend to marry someone else so no one would know she was married to JS. Isn't that the definition of a lie?  

  

Joseph F. Smith cut out the original first vision account written in Joseph Smith's own handwriting and hid it for a few decades.  

  

The church created the proclamation on the family so they could fight against gay marriage in Hawaii.  

  

The church suggests to parents that they should not treat gay children like straight children so that it doesn't look like they accept the gay child's lifestyle.  

Book of Mormon timeline contradicts bible and history

1 Nephi 1:4 - Nephi lived at Jerusalem with his Dad who lived there his whole life and was there during the first year of the reign of Zedekiah. Also, there were many prophets foretelling of the destruction of Jerusalem. 2:4 – Nephi's family was rich, 2:16 – Nephi was big and strong 

2 Kings 24:11-18 - Nebuchadnezzar destroys Jerusalem, carries away everyone except the poorest (v14) and makes Zedekiah king.  

Nephi and his family would have been in captivity, and it seems unlikely anyone would have been prophesying of the destruction of Jerusalem since it literally was just destroyed. I checked on Wikipedia and archeology agrees with the bible, Jerusalem was sacked, and people were carried away right before Zedekiah was made king. This is another thing that comes back to God causing confusion. If Joseph Smith literally translated the plates, which seems unlikely, then why would the history be wrong? If Joseph used the plates as a catalyst for inspiration, then why would God inspire Joseph to write something confusing? There are lots of things in the BOM that make serious historians ignore it. These things are called anachronisms. This is when something modern shows up in something that is supposed to be ancient. Horses, steel, coinage, and many other things the BOM talks about did not exist in America as far as archeologists can tell, and they’ve found a lot so far, horses, coinage and steel are things that are easy to find because they leave behind evidence in multiple ways, horses have stables and fields, steel has blacksmith shops and mining, so why do they show up in the BOM? Why are there historical errors like Nephi not getting carried away right before Zedekiah was made king? It can't be a literal history and if it's a made up inspired text then why did Joseph tell people it was historically true? In various scriptures, biblical and LDS, God says he can’t lie and doesn’t like confusing us. Why are there things like this that cause confusion but supposedly came from God? 

Polygamy is a crime

Polygamy is a crime https://www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper-summary/doctrine-and-covenants-1835/259 Once again, this is scripture, supposedly from God, and then a few year later he's now ok with Polygamy? Why is god being confusing? Why is he constantly changing his mind? I thought he was the same always.

There are lots of things like this in the Mormon church where doctrine has changed and it seems like the church is led by the whims of whoever is in charge instead of a god. The other crazy thing about this is that in the first paragraph under the heading "The beginnings of Plural Marriage in the Church" in the gospel topics essay plural marriage in Kirtland and Nauvoo it says Joseph Smith got the revelation for polygamy in 1831. If that's the case then why was D&C 101 canonized in the 1835 version of the D&C? How is that not confusing? If God told Joseph in 1831 that polygamy was a law he needed to live then why did JS receive 101 as a revelation in 1835 and if it wasn't a revelation then why wasn't god "preparing a way for his children to keep his commandments" instead of causing confusion by allowing contradicting revelations and scriptures to exist at the same time? 

The more I learn about Polygamy the more certain I am that JS was a conman and not a prophet, billions of moral, good people have lived on this planet, people who would never take advantage of someone else, people who would be loyal to their spouse and never manipulate other people into relationships with them. Joseph hid polygamy from Emma until he had already married 10+ women, Emma was not the first woman sealed to Joseph, he even married a few people a second time so Emma could be present without admitting he was already married, he told some women their eternal salvation and that of their family was dependent on them marrying him. God had his pick of people on the planet to prepare as a prophet, Joseph was a horrible choice. I can't believe in the Mormon god that calls prophets, he keeps making such poor choices.  

God can't see the future

If god could outline so many details of how the church should run in the D&C, then why didn't he also outline how prophets should be called? Did he not know JS was going to die? Did he not know there would be a succession crisis? (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Succession_crisis_(Latter_Day_Saints)) The chruch split into like 6 different groups after JS died. If god doesn't cause confusion then he should have laid out a plan for the eventual death of the prophet. Since he didn't, it's easy for me to think JS wasn't talking to god and made everything up because he didn't need to plan for his death. 

You are all familiar with the story of Brigham Young looking like Joseph Smith after Joseph's death, which is why we believe Brigham was the next prophet and not Sidney Rigdon or Joseph Smith III. But if you look at the evidence no one there on the day wrote that BY looked like JS, in fact that story was started after the fact. 

This https://www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper-summary/history-1838-1856-volume-f-1-1-may-1844-8-august-1844/307 shows what the next speaker after BY said, they didn't say anything like "wow, did you guys see that, he looked just like Joseph" in fact what he said is "I agree, there shouldn't be a prophet, it should just be the 12 that run things" keep reading and the next speaker says basically the same thing, there shouldn't be a new prophet, just the 12 running things. On page 302 Brigham even says "either vote for Sidney or the 12, it wasn't between him and Sidney. And at the bottom of page 302 the vote is for the 12 to lead, not Brigham.

Here's a scholarly article where the author examines all the evidence they can find and discusses how this myth was created http://www.mormonismi.net/pdf/myth_creation.pdf Why didn't god just save us from all this confusion by telling Joseph how the prophet would be picked at the same him he told Joseph how all other offices would be filled? It feels made up because there was no clear outline for who the next prophet would be. 

Don't take care of the poor

I read this article recently https://markets.businessinsider.com/news/stocks/mormon-church-100-billion-fund-gamestop-stock-gain-tesla-stake-2021-5-1030442617 

Jesus didn't tell the rich man to hoard his wealth for a rainy day, Jesus told him to sell it and give to the poor. Wasn't Jesus the one that said "think not on the morrow, God provides for the birds, are ye not of more worth" If you follow Jesus, you wouldn't save any money. Maybe you can justify some savings but would Jesus really want you to save so much money that you could end world hunger by yourself and then not do that? 

Google estimates 7 billion dollars a year would end world hunger. 7 billion is also how much interest the church makes on 120+ billion in one average year, so the church could keep the investment fund and only use interest to end world hunger. If Jesus was truly running things wouldn't he do that? What better way to spread the gospel than to be the church that ends world hunger? How many people would start listening to the missionaries and join the church from that one act of charity? 

This bothers me because I was following Jesus, I wasn't saving much for retirement, I was trying to make sure I was doing what Jesus said to take care of the poor, and I thought tithing and fast offerings helped. The church added a disclaimer to their tithing slips a few years ago, whatever you donate the church can be used however they want. How much money have I given to the church, under the impression it would be used to help the poor, but really it ended up in investments? Wouldn't Jesus be transparent so that members could know exactly where every penny was going? Would he really use the widow's mite to buy shares in GameStop or Microsoft? Is that the Jesus we follow? 

The church doesn't appear to follow Jesus in this regard. Some Churches show online how much money they bring in each year and what they do with it. Why are random churches more transparent than God’s one true church? I think Mormonism isn’t Jesus’ church nor does it follow him.  

Ordained multiple times?

Here (in the third paragraph) and here (in the 4th paragraph) shows that Lyman Wight ordained Joseph to the high priesthood, if Peter, James and John (source) had already done that then why did Lyman do it again?  

Alma baptized himself when he baptized the first person at the waters of Mormon but no where else does it say someone else had already baptized him, so while weird, it isn't totally crazy I guess. Why would Joseph be ordained a second time if he had already been ordained? I suppose you could be literal (like Bushman suggests) and say Peter, James and John ordained him to be an apostle and Lyman Wight ordained him to be a high priest, I could be wrong but I thought once you were ordained to a higher priesthood you automatically had the lower priesthood. I also thought in the church we ordained new converts to each priesthood in order. I suppose you could say maybe JS misunderstood something, but if God is the same yesterday, today and forever, and if his gospel is plain and simple then wouldn't Peter, James and John have known Joseph needed to be ordained to be a high priest before being ordained to be an apostle and wouldn't they have taken care of that and let JS know what was going on?   

Misunderstanding revelation?

President Nelson/prophets/apostles doesn't get revelation or can't tell when he's getting revelation:  

2015 policy to exclude gays  

  

Nelson says revelation was involved in creating the policy https://newsroom.churchofjesuschrist.org/article/president-nelson-handbook-change  

  

Greg Prince says that Pres. Monson had dementia at the time, it was in direct response to the supreme court decision,  Tom Christopherson said that his brother didn't know about it until the day they had to vote on it  

  

Mormonland https://www.iheart.com/podcast/269-mormon-land-29372569/episode/the-lds-churchs-lgbtq-policy-how-30808290/  

  

2018 policy to reverse the exclusion of gays  

  

Oaks claims revelation again was received to help create this policy  

  

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/church/news/policy-changes-announced-for-members-in-gay-marriages-children-of-lgbt-parents?lang=eng  

  

Why would God reveal a policy that prevents someone from receiving ordinances of salvation for the sins of someone else?  

  

Why would God reveal a policy that had to be reversed with in 3 years?  

  

Did he want to get rid of people in the church that felt charity towards gays and that believed Jesus's command to "suffer the little children to come to him"?  

  

Did he want to try gay people and people who have charity towards them?  

  

Why would a trial include preventing people from receiving ordinances needed for salvation?  

Here are some more thoughts I've had with regards to this issue: 

  

God gives us commandments but if we won't keep them he will take them away.  

  

If God loves us and wants to save us then why would he give us a commandment that he knows we won't follow? That's cruel. If I tell Forrest that I'll take him fishing if he mows the lawn, but I know that he can't mow the lawn, am I being a loving father? If God gives Gays a commandment knowing that they can't be happy and keep the commandment is he a loving father?  

  

If God knows we can't or won't keep a commandment why would he give it to us? Is it to rub our nose in it? Show us how fallen and evil we are? Is a parent really a loving parent if they constantly remind their child how bad they are?  

  

God wasn't sure what would happen and when people didn't accept the policy and the church looked bad he reversed it.  

  

If God didn't know how things were going to work out then he's not really the God we thought he was, he's failable and not omniscient. If he's not omniscient then how can we be sure he has any power to save us or do anything for us? This option just seems crazy.  

  

The prophet didn't ask God and was acting as a man when it was released or when it was reversed  

  

If this is the case then why should we do anything the prophets or apostles tell us is from God? They are liars and just make things up as they go and as members of the church we have no way to let the know they got it wrong and if we speak out against them we get excommunicated. There's no feedback system so we can let the leaders of the church know they are getting things wrong and acting like men instead of prophets and apostles.  

  

I don't feel the spirit when I ask questions. I have felt what I thought was the spirit letting me know God loves me, helping me feel kindness or love towards someone, reading or discussing gospel topics related to treating people with love and kindness. I've never felt the spirit when I ask questions, like is the church true, is the prophet really the prophet, is some point of doctrine really from God. I'm sure I'm not the only person like this, is God really a loving God if he lets the prophets act like men, have their agency and lead the whole church astray when there are lots of us that can't tell when the prophet is acting like a man or acting like a prophet?  

  

If baptism is the only way to be saved, then why would God command people to not let their kids get baptized?  

  

If the church is the best place to find happiness and draw closer to God then why would God command people or those people's children to not participate in church just because they are living a lifestyle that is considered sinful by the church?  

  

Who did Jesus spend his time with?  

  

What did Jesus command his disciples regarding the little children?